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Post by Wolverine12 on May 4, 2014 13:40:02 GMT -6
So with Doom and Osborn and maybe Peter all back in the fold I was wondering if anyone else thinks that Marvel is going to back of "dead is dead." I think that Doom and Norman are two clear violations of the rule, but some people argue that they never really died. What I say to that is that you could make that excuse for any "dead" character, best example being Beast who "never really died" and came back in Kirkman's run. I really do hope they back off the rule because it's put the writers in a corner that they can't seem to get out of and that corner is filling the shoes of dead heroes.
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Post by philiplawson09 on May 4, 2014 13:47:40 GMT -6
Dead characters that I would like to see return are Dr. Strange, Mahr Vehl, Wolverine and Frank Castle.
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Post by Sage6Paths on May 4, 2014 13:50:39 GMT -6
Ultimate Mephisto can bring the dead back to life. I'm pretty sure Dead means dead should be over. Lol.
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Post by Mr_Monster_Munch on May 4, 2014 14:47:50 GMT -6
(Moved from the now deceased CBR forum) I think the rule in essence is very good, but unfortunately the majority of the creative decisions that have come from it have been poorly executed, and I don't agree with some of the characters dying either, especially the really unique ones. Like our super cool Captain Geheneris Mahr-Vehl with super advanced alien Iron Man shit going on, our beloved female Vision and a truly badass Logan. If they want to kill off characters, why choose to kill off all the niches of the universe? Thus, destroying it's identity in the process. Why not just kill off the boring or less unique 616 copies instead? There's plenty of characters I wouldn't mind being killed off permanently so that new yet-to-be-Ultimatized characters can take their place. For example, I'm happy with Miles fighting Peter's villains with them getting killed off, but we need to see lots of great new villains too. Bendis is thankfully continuing his 'new character every arc' process, like Scorpion in the second arc, Batroc in the third, a new Venom in the fourth, Task Master in the fifth and Galactus in the Cataclysm tie-in. But somehow it doesn't feel like much. I'm still trying to work out Miles' Big 3 (Peter had GG, Doc Ock and Fisk). I thought Scorpion was going to be one of Miles' Big 3 but he hasn't come back yet. Miles needs a substantially pivotal villain of his own, and giving someone like Scorpion or Task Master a second arc would really help that. Coming back on topic, there are instances of killing off characters that I really liked. But their deaths weren't handled well at all. Xavier's death was good, but it didn't make much sense. Why did Xavier let Magneto kill him? Seriously, what's up with that? But killing Xavier off was a good idea because it always pushes the team forward in big ways without his sort of MarySue tutelage. Without him to answer everything, things get much more intriguing, especially when after the X-Men have been torn apart and decimated. And I loved Cyclopes' death. I thought it was really inventive. It's the cleverest part of Ultimatum and it happens at the very end. And I've never truly liked Cyclopes either, and like Xavier, I don't feel like he belongs in a post-Ultimatum world. But there were so many deaths that didn't make sense or weren't explained in Ultimatum. Like Daredevil's and Nightcrawler's. Which is just bad writing and disrespectful to the characters and their abilities. I think Ultimate Wolverine getting killed off for a few years whilst he slowly heals is a good idea. But keeping him dead forever is not. He only needs one cell of DNA to heal from. So of course he needs to come back eventually. And of course, the Dead Means Dead rule is a complete hypocrisy. But I don't really mind that too much. I'm glad that Fialkov has rectified Dr Doom's 'death' in Ultimatum for his new Ultimate Future Foundation run. And Wolverine needs to come back too. For the most part though, characters should remain dead. Otherwise their sacrifice means nothing. Characters need to be killed off sometimes. I can't stress this enough. There are always losses on both sides when a truly serious threat comes along, so therefore to not make it seem like easily dismissed blithe, heroes need to die. But it needs to be done lightly. I don't like the idea of culling a cast in one big sweep. Just kill off Omega Red in an USM arc or something. One at a time please! Dead Means Dead is basically just a bad marketing ploy. But I think it's good that they've broken the rule a bit.
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Post by Wolverine12 on May 4, 2014 14:53:49 GMT -6
I think what is bothering me about it currently is that when Norman escapes what is to stop him from killing MJ, May and Gwen? Peter died trying to save his family and he failed it would seem. That is extremely tragic to me. I know of course Miles will step up, but it doesn't really hold the same weight as Peter defending his family.
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Post by thecrimson on May 4, 2014 15:15:32 GMT -6
Doom died before?
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Post by Wolverine12 on May 4, 2014 15:34:51 GMT -6
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Post by ty on May 4, 2014 15:35:33 GMT -6
Dead means dead is only used when its convenient
- UltimateTy from CBR checking in
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Post by thecrimson on May 4, 2014 15:39:52 GMT -6
I didn't read all of that event, because I got to a part where Blob was eating Wasp, I think? And it almost made me throw up. I think that was the event, right?
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Post by Sage6Paths on May 4, 2014 15:44:26 GMT -6
I didn't read all of that event, because I got to a part where Blob was eating Wasp, I think? And it almost made me throw up. I think that was the event, right? Yep. And I don't blame you. If you didn't see the way Doom died than it's probably for the best.
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Post by Wolverine12 on May 4, 2014 15:44:41 GMT -6
I didn't read all of that event, because I got to a part where Blob was eating Wasp, I think? And it almost made me throw up. I think that was the event, right? Yeah he died in the end. Ben Grimm squished his head. Fialkov is saying that wasn't the real Doom, which I'm okay with but why can they only use that excuse for Doom? It's part of the reason I think the rule is going away.
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Post by thecrimson on May 4, 2014 15:46:02 GMT -6
I didn't read all of that event, because I got to a part where Blob was eating Wasp, I think? And it almost made me throw up. I think that was the event, right? Yeah he died in the end. Ben Grimm squished his head. Fialkov is saying that wasn't the real Doom, which I'm okay with but why can they only use that excuse for Doom? It's part of the reason I think the rule is going away. The Doom he killed, did he have goat legs?
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Post by Rok on May 4, 2014 15:49:34 GMT -6
I didn't read all of that event, because I got to a part where Blob was eating Wasp, I think? And it almost made me throw up. I think that was the event, right? Yeah he died in the end. Ben Grimm squished his head. Fialkov is saying that wasn't the real Doom, which I'm okay with but why can they only use that excuse for Doom? It's part of the reason I think the rule is going away. Woot. proper quotation system!
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Post by Mr_Monster_Munch on May 4, 2014 15:51:25 GMT -6
It's more to do with fact that the Doom in Ultimatum had blood and organs. So it wasn't Ultimate Doom but someone else.
We should get some answers this month in UFF.
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Post by Sage6Paths on May 4, 2014 15:56:29 GMT -6
Yeah he died in the end. Ben Grimm squished his head. Fialkov is saying that wasn't the real Doom, which I'm okay with but why can they only use that excuse for Doom? It's part of the reason I think the rule is going away. Woot. proper quotation system! Not to mention a like button. I have always wanted that in the old CBR forums.
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Post by spock on May 4, 2014 17:19:28 GMT -6
If it is, I would like pretty much all of the X-Men back. I would much rather have Ultimate X-Men than Ultimate Spider-Man and His Ultimate Friends.
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Post by Wolverine12 on May 4, 2014 23:57:16 GMT -6
If it is, I would like pretty much all of the X-Men back. I would much rather have Ultimate X-Men than Ultimate Spider-Man and His Ultimate Friends. SECONDED!
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Post by spock on May 5, 2014 15:04:36 GMT -6
If it is, I would like pretty much all of the X-Men back. I would much rather have Ultimate X-Men than Ultimate Spider-Man and His Ultimate Friends. SECONDED!Especially Ultimate Wolverine.
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Post by Sage6Paths on May 5, 2014 15:28:29 GMT -6
Agreed. While I do like Miles team I just wished that team was featured in the regular Ultimate Spider-Man book. I don't get why we can only have 3 books now anyway when four was the norm.
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Post by Mr_Monster_Munch on May 5, 2014 16:22:36 GMT -6
Agreed. While I do like Miles team I just wished that team was featured in the regular Ultimate Spider-Man book. I don't get why we can only have 3 books now anyway when four was the norm. You're right that four books a month are pretty standard in the UU. But there hasn't yet been more than three ongoings at one time. I think it's logical to presume we'll be getting a mini series some time in the near future. Until then, some of the books will be double shipping every once in a while. We're getting two All-New Ultimates issues next month and two UFF issues the month after, which I'm happy with for now.
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Post by Wolverine12 on May 6, 2014 0:13:17 GMT -6
I think we may have a more concrete answer to this question soon....
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Post by Agemoi on May 6, 2014 8:19:07 GMT -6
I said "Yes"
Because its pretty easy, isn't it? You either do it or you don't. Im not about this "sorta, kinda when its convenient" attitude thats been around for about 7 years now. Dead means dead is ambitious, and dangerous all the same. But once Norman came back to "kill" Peter, and is now back to fight Miles, they obviously don't believe in dead means dead. And why should you? Dead and resurrection are powerful plot devices. Killing off major players is great in the short term, but ultimately limits your roster.
How great would it be if peter came back to HELP miles defeat Norman? Because neither one of them can do it on their own. Or maybe the scorpion clone at least. Who knows haha, but now with Doom back too its obvious they're getting creative with this rule because no one wants to abide by it.
And at this point, who can blame them?
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Post by Wolverine12 on May 6, 2014 18:53:26 GMT -6
I said "Yes" Because its pretty easy, isn't it? You either do it or you don't. Im not about this "sorta, kinda when its convenient" attitude thats been around for about 7 years now. Dead means dead is ambitious, and dangerous all the same. But once Norman came back to "kill" Peter, and is now back to fight Miles, they obviously don't believe in dead means dead. And why should you? Dead and resurrection are powerful plot devices. Killing off major players is great in the short term, but ultimately limits your roster. How great would it be if peter came back to HELP miles defeat Norman? Because neither one of them can do it on their own. Or maybe the scorpion clone at least. Who knows haha, but now with Doom back too its obvious they're getting creative with this rule because no one wants to abide by it. And at this point, who can blame them? Yeah, I've always held the same view. You either do it 100% or don't. Anything else is just making excuses, so I say if you can make an excuse for character A to still be alive than there is no reason you can't make an excuse for character B to still be alive. Ultimatum could all be wiped away by saying it was Xavier using Cerebro to create the illusion of all the heroes deaths while Magneto actually caused the flood so there would be wreckage afterwards. Xavier and Magneto finally reach the endgame of their "plan" for mutants and all the dead mutants are revealed to have been underground and training this whole time to fight Apocalypse or something. Not a great story but it's just as good as "oh hey, I though Norman was dead? No? Well that's weird?"
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Post by Agemoi on May 6, 2014 18:58:52 GMT -6
I said "Yes" Because its pretty easy, isn't it? You either do it or you don't. Im not about this "sorta, kinda when its convenient" attitude thats been around for about 7 years now. Dead means dead is ambitious, and dangerous all the same. But once Norman came back to "kill" Peter, and is now back to fight Miles, they obviously don't believe in dead means dead. And why should you? Dead and resurrection are powerful plot devices. Killing off major players is great in the short term, but ultimately limits your roster. How great would it be if peter came back to HELP miles defeat Norman? Because neither one of them can do it on their own. Or maybe the scorpion clone at least. Who knows haha, but now with Doom back too its obvious they're getting creative with this rule because no one wants to abide by it. And at this point, who can blame them? Yeah, I've always held the same view. You either do it 100% or don't. Anything else is just making excuses, so I say if you can make an excuse for character A to still be alive than there is no reason you can't make an excuse for character B to still be alive. Ultimatum could all be wiped away by saying it was Xavier using Cerebro to create the illusion of all the heroes deaths while Magneto actually caused the flood so there would be wreckage afterwards. Xavier and Magneto finally reach the endgame of their "plan" for mutants and all the dead mutants are revealed to have been underground and training this whole time to fight Apocalypse or something. Not a great story but it's just as good as "oh hey, I though Norman was dead? No? Well that's weird?" hahaha man the bold part made me giggle. Yes, giggle. Men can do that. But yeah man, I never found that an unreasonable expectation. If its a hard and fast rule, then dont break it out of convenience. If you HAVE to ((Norman, Doom)) then you clearly have a problem with the damn rule. I did come to terms with Peter dying, but now with the tease and Norman coming back AGAIN, it just feels right to have him around in some sort of capacity. As much as I want it to be true i have to be skeptical. Ive just been hurt so many times before lol I dont think itd devalue Miles either. If anything it'll give him the chance to really distinguish himself from Peter. Its a great opportunity.
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Post by Wolverine12 on May 6, 2014 21:42:22 GMT -6
Yeah, I've always held the same view. You either do it 100% or don't. Anything else is just making excuses, so I say if you can make an excuse for character A to still be alive than there is no reason you can't make an excuse for character B to still be alive. Ultimatum could all be wiped away by saying it was Xavier using Cerebro to create the illusion of all the heroes deaths while Magneto actually caused the flood so there would be wreckage afterwards. Xavier and Magneto finally reach the endgame of their "plan" for mutants and all the dead mutants are revealed to have been underground and training this whole time to fight Apocalypse or something. Not a great story but it's just as good as "oh hey, I though Norman was dead? No? Well that's weird?" hahaha man the bold part made me giggle. Yes, giggle. Men can do that. But yeah man, I never found that an unreasonable expectation. If its a hard and fast rule, then dont break it out of convenience. If you HAVE to ((Norman, Doom)) then you clearly have a problem with the damn rule. I did come to terms with Peter dying, but now with the tease and Norman coming back AGAIN, it just feels right to have him around in some sort of capacity. As much as I want it to be true i have to be skeptical. Ive just been hurt so many times before lol I dont think itd devalue Miles either. If anything it'll give him the chance to really distinguish himself from Peter. Its a great opportunity. I will still buy Miles book if Peter comes back and has his own book. I think it could help him step out of Peter's shadow since he won't have to live up to a dead hero who people only remember the good stuff about. He can be his own Spider-man.
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Post by Agemoi on May 7, 2014 8:33:53 GMT -6
I will still buy Miles book if Peter comes back and has his own book. I think it could help him step out of Peter's shadow since he won't have to live up to a dead hero who people only remember the good stuff about. He can be his own Spider-man. Yep I agree. Having him around will help distinguish the two for sure. Hell, make an Ultimate Spider-Men book! That way Miles is still the core of the UU, since no one here is asking for him to leave. but having access to Peter allows easier, less contrived access to Peter's supporting cast. And any time his supporting cast appeared made an USM issue better. But yeah, a part of me wishes we could've grown up with Ultimate Peter the same way audiences got to grow up with 616 Peter. I'll always consider it a missed opportunity, because growing up in the 70's is VASTLY different from growing up in the 21st century. But hell, it is what it is isn't it? I'll have to stick to the Amazing Spider-Man films for that one haha And if the UU stays around then it'll be still damn good to grow up with Miles.. assuming they don't kill HIM off and start over too -_-
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